If you’ve just put your Tornado up for sale, then withdraw it from the market immediately!
ISAF has just published a new submission that might interest you.
Yes, it’s official. The Events for the 2012 Olympics are back on the agenda.
Here is what the new Submission says:
REPORTING COMMITTEE – EXECUTIVE
Submission: M06-08
OTHER COMMITTEE – EVENTS
2012 Olympic Events
A submission from the Executive Committee
Proposal:
That Council reaffirm their decision on the 2012 Olympic Events made in November
2007 by a simple majority vote.
Upon reaffirmation, the matter will be concluded and all submissions made whether
accepted as urgent or not urgent, will be considered to have been dealt with.
Should Council vote not to reaffirm the decision, two separate votes will then follow:
1. Should the selected events for the Men be changed – A majority of two thirds
will be required to effect any change as per Regulation 16.1.3 (a).
2. Should the selected events for the Women be changed – A majority of two
thirds will be required to effect any change as per Regulation 16.1.3 (a).
In case one or both of the votes under 1 and 2 above achieve the required majority,
the ‘new’ decisions on the list of events for the 2012 Olympic Events shall be made in
November 2008 and submissions on the events can be made in accordance with
Regulation 1.
Current Position:
See above.
Reason:
Due to the degree of correspondence since the Council decision in November 2007
plus the submissions lodged by 15 MNA and 2 Class Associations, the Executive
submit that Council be requested to reaffirm their decision on the events for the 2012
Olympic Sailing Competition made in November 2007. This will then bring to a close
any concerns over the Council decision.
In case one or both of the votes under 1 and 2 above achieve the required majority,
submissions on the events can be made in accordance with Regulation 1. This
would include the submissions made for the Mid-Year Meeting which were deemed
not urgent, which will become ordinary submissions received before the 1 August
submission deadline.
Click below to download the pdf document
Question: The Multihull and the Women’s Skiff have been given a second chance. What do you think ISAF Council will vote for this time?
75% majority to change? Nothing will happen..
Let’s not be negative…..
Surely a cat can come back in, at the expense of the Finn. Maybe the T can come back for 2012, but be replaced by a more widespread cat later? Or men and women’s singlehanded cats?
The Finn is the logical boat to go. The heavyweight dinghy is less popular as a discipline (although surprisingly popular in Europe).
The Finn class call “but we must cater for heavy sailors” seems dubious when in the past when the Finn was the only Olympic singlehander, the former head of the Finn association (IIRC) and the Gold Medallist were saying “if you are too small, bad luck”.
Similarly, in earlier years the Finn was a supplied strict OD and the class said that it was the only way to ensure the best sailor won, which makes a mockery of their claim that you must test the ability to help create a faster rig (and surely if you are testing developmental ability it makes more sense to use a faster platform and one where you can vary hull shape as well as sail shape).
Sure, this happened some time ago but an association that stresses its history cannot just ignore its past positions simply because they contradict its current ones. If they use history as a support for their position, surely they have to expect it to be used as a stick.
The Finn is not very televisual and it’s not all that widespread, and it’s too close to the Laser.
Women’s leadmine should stay. The women’s skiff discipline is unpopular; has little spread; and even where skiffs came from very few women sail them, most preferring to sail mid-speed boats (NS14s, Tasars, Radials), cats or yachts. And as RS, Topper, Vanguard etc have found out, the sailing public just don’t want to sail skiff types in huge numbers so skiffs are not the future of sailing.
Will there be trials for a new leadmine and a new cat for 2016?
Read it again:
* Simple majority for first vote closes the whole issue
* If that isn’t passed (i.e. 50.1% of voters say it needs revisiting), then
** 66.6% majority needed in one vote to reconsider Men’s (which may then conclude Cats are good)
** 66.6% majority needed in another vote to reconsider Women’s (which may then conclude skiffs are good)
The makeup of classes is not a decision that should be subject to a democratic process at a class by class level.
Yet here we are again where self interest will probably get in the way of a reasoned and rational outcome.
The way to make decisions of this nature is to appoint an impartial panel of experts that have no conflict of interest and agree to abide by their findings and their recommended make-up of olympic classes.
There could then be a vote to simply approve the overall dance card to saitisfy any governance needs.
I really hope that sanity will prevail, but I think it is unlikely that delegates will do anything other than again vote with self interest.
The first vote (hurdle of 50%) could well be achieved as delegates will understand there is an expectation of (and good PR good mileage to be had by) voting that way and no downside. The second round of voting is the critical stage – and 67% seems unlikely to be achieved.
ISAF will say that a proper review has been had and this can be put to bed. But the reality is that the process used so far has been flawed.
I really hope I am wrong regarding the outcome.
Is this a late April Fool?
Chris 249, you’re making some ridiculous points.
The arguments you use to ditch the Finn, it is unappealing, not widespread (apart from Europe) apply exactly to the Yngling.
The least appealing of all the classes to watch, and definitely the worst to sail, on the plus side, it costs a tonne of money to sail, so the UK will do well. £120,000 budgetted this year.
Who cares if women’s skiff is not yet widespread, or if it ever will be? It will encourage athletes to go to the games and have fun while competing. The boats produced by laser, topper, rs are in no way skiffs. (800 is skiff like)
Cecil, read the post properly…..why did you think I wondered whether there would be a new keelboat in 2016? Because, as you say, the Yngling seems to be the wrong boat.
However, there are compelling arguments for keelboats to stay in the Olympics. The keelboat handling facilities are needed so that the host cities build facilities for the Paralympic keelboats, and ballasted monohulls represent more sailors than any other type of sailing craft.
If you want the Games to be representative of our sport you cannot throw out the disciplines that represent the largest part of the sport. It’s ridiculous to ignore that.
Who cares if the women’s skiff is not widespread or ever likely to be? The International Olympic Committee does, that’s who. They are the ones who finally dictate whether sailing stays in the Games. Their post-Athens report criticised sailing for not being widespread enough. Having more classes that are not widespread will not help that.
That’s why I wondered whether we needed a keelboat trials for 2016…..imagine a ramp-launched, exciting keelboat cheap enough to spread into countries where Olympic keelboating is not currently practised. Imagine a single class that could replace perhaps both Yngling and Star.
As far as I can find out, keelboats are more widepread than skiff types, and therefore they fulfil one of the IOC’s criticisms of sailing. What exactly is ridiculous about fulfilling IOC criteria and also representing the greatest proportion of sailors?
If the skiff types encourage Olympic sailors more than conventional boats, then why does the 49er attract fewer sailors than the 470?
If the skiff types encourage more sailors then why do so few women sail them where skiffs come from?
If a skiff type doesn’t become widespread (and so far they haven’t) then they cannot be encouraging sailors all that much, can they?
About the definition of skiffs – I specifically referred to “skiff types” when mentioning RS, Topper and Vanguard. The “skiff” definition point is a long and murky one, which only becomes murkier if you go through source material like “Sydney Mails” of the 1880s, the Aberdare controversy, the original rules of the 16s, etc etc etc. This isn’t the place.
Seems dangerous to open this can of worms. Judging by their last decision, plus the mix-up in correspondence, you could see them dropping the 49er and Laser to replace with the Dragon and Soling.
Their view of needing a class like the Star to satisfy those older, less-fit, ‘budding’ Olympic sailors shows that the onset of Alzheimers is already rife amongst the powers that be.
Yingling should change to women’s skiff, Finn should go in favour of Musto Skiff, and Star should disappear, but if that was to happen ‘I’d darn well eat my hat’. (Being old I can get away with such phrases. Maybe I could persuade the executive committee to lobby for such sayings to become compulsory amongst the young)
It would be fantastic with a women skiff….
I think the interesting part was the submissions about the actual equipment. Look like there is a plan to ditch the 470, put the 49er and 29er in the 2 person dinghy slots and a multihull for the 2 person high performance. Could be done without changing any of the events.
I agree with Chris on combining the keelboat classes. Maybe have a boat like the SB3 that is exciting to watch, and enforce each team to have a woman on board, this will mean the women dont get ditched for the big guys.
Combining the keelboats would also free up another medal, meaning if you scrap the finn you could have the tornado and womans skiff, and still let women sail a keelboat
As to having a womans skiff, the 49er wasn’t all that popular until it became an Olympic class, and now its booming. So more people sail a 470 at the moment, will that be the case in 10 years? The Olympic classes should develop as sailing develops.
Olympic sailing should also be exciting to watch, hence why the skiff has its place, your average joe doesn’t understand the tactics behind racing or the theory behind sailing, but that can understand a boat going fast, with the odd crash, and people will enjoy it. I think its like the F1 in motor racing, impractical for most, but still fun to watch, even if you don’t completely understand it.
In my opinion Olympic sailing should represent the diversity of talent and classes in sailing, that means more variation in classes, and more modern boats.
Back onto the question asked. Unfortunately it is still quite a battle for them to win. it takes a minimum of 33.3% of the council to be against them for them to lose out.
Just my 2 (or more) cents
Ok, I was using skiff as interchangeable with High Performance. Not agreeable to everyone, or correct, but quite a common term. Yes, I have seen the ‘debates’ on anarchy.
Re; Skiffs aren’t encouraging girls. In the UK I have lots of females friends at the top end of the mixed 800 and 29er fleets. Also, I didn’t say encourage generally, I said encourage them to go to the games. Although from the times I have taken non-sailors sailing on HPboats they have been far more enthused with the sport than people introduced in a Wayfarer.
Re; “Read the post properly” Trials mean shit. There were trials for a Female HP dinghy, remember? Is there currently one of those in the games?
I never said no keelboats, read the post properly. I enjoy the Star, they are impressive boats. Possibly they are not the right keelboat for the Olympics, citius, altius, fortius? But the physicallity brought in by Finn sailors has changed the game. Comments from Cayard, Grael support this.
Re; representing the largest part of our sport. Are these numbers related to 3/4 person keelboats only? I don’t think that a Star/Yngling is really much more representative of a man who sails in the middle of a Farr 40 than 49er.
Most people in the world walk. They do this in almost every country. Lets have more walking events. Oh wait, they don’t do it as a sport.
So that discounts all the numbers of boats that aren’t raced.
2 points:
1 – I think nothing of substance will happen given the 66% outcome required to actually change anything – but I live in hope.
2 – what do I think should happen if my hope is realised? Whilst Chris has a point about whether infra structure is needed in any event to support the Paralymics I don’t see a place for keelboats at Olympics. Huge fun to sail mostly (save for apparently the Yngling) but not televisual, exciting or about obviously fit athletes ( no room for agediscrimination issues in Olympic sport – plenty of fun outlets outside 5 ring circus). But I do disagree about the skiff issues. There is documentary proof (eg Silya Lehtinen & one of the previous 29er Wordls winners (female) who said that the lack of skiff opportunity was forcing them to seek their thrills elsewhere. It seems that there are plenty dying for it to happen (see the expressed views of the current 29er Youth Champion in the UK (also a female). So I don’t see historical data being particularly usefull here.
Above all though the argument has been put by many in terms of not ignoring a large section of the sport. My take on it is that the really criminal neglect is to ignore equality for half the human race. So female Skiff it is for me. Which one is another matter but the basic minimum requirement in the 21st century is gender equality and then you can impose the sailing rationale and decide what needs to give way for inclusion purposes.
PS given the maximum athlete participation criteria for sailing at the Olympics I see it as being folly to waste scarce athlete places on 3 man boats. You can see where that is going!…
I hope, but doubt, that things will change.
On the subject of women’s high performance sailing, I am, at present, against this being included. I do believe that Olympic events should represent the sport we play, and not just be about TV revenue. There are very few all female teams in any high performance class. The 29er does have some, but youth classes need to be viewed slightly seperately to adult classes due to the reduction in choice and more formalised approach to training. If there was sufficent demand for an all girl ’skiff’, someone would be producing one aleardy, without waiting for Olympic selection. Besides, if there are only a dozen teams from half a dozen countries who are of a decent standard, it makes a mockery of the Olympics. That is the reason the Tornado was dropped, it would be foolish to ignore this lesson. If and when women’s ’skiffing’ becomes a widespread discipline I would be all in favour of including it in the Games, but until then there are surely more deserving events.
The Finn is surely the obvious choice to drop, albeit I do think it would a shame to remove all classes that allow abit of development.
Whatever your position it cant be right that the women only have 3 events to compete in at the Olympics where is the sexual equality in that?
I have no great view on whether the cats should be back in or not but get rid of the Star and the womens keeboat to start with and replace them with something more up to date fastser and more TV friendly.
I fail to see why OAP’s need to be represented at the Olympics it should be for the fittest, strongest and fastest sailors out there which I would suggest is those under 35ish
Whatever boats are selected that class will achieve a surge in numbers at grass roots you only have to look at the 29er to see that when it is an ISAF youth boat then numbers rocket and when it was replaced by the 420 for a few years numbers decline, now its back in the 29er numbers have gone skywards again. Personally I would get rid of the 470, Finn and Star, why are we still using 1950’s designs for what is the pinnacle of our sport just because they are popular in some countries? or those that vote them in have a vested interest.
wether isaf vote to revisit this will be seen, but the argument about the classes will continue and will remain as contentious as ever.
get rid of the finn and the finnists ( pun ) will complain etc
get rid of the yngling and no one would complain
get rid of the womans match racing and a few old women will moan a bit more than normall.
Do nothing or any thing and chris 249 will defiantely moan and complain.
But the big question is should the olympic discipline boats represent the massive or be tailored to the elite?
Here is the womans skiff / high performance argument – surely this is a discicpline to challenge the very best woman, not one for the masses.
The Laser on the other hand is deffinately a boat for the masses and in the regard it gives the spoprt a unique insight – you can sail the same boat as the Olympic champions.
So my opinion is that there should be a mix of popular and elite classes. Some thing towards a 50 /50 as well as a 50 / 50 split mens to womans and single and two person boats.
So here it goes
windsurfing x 2 elite 8 years
One person x 2 popular 8 years
2 person x 2 elite 8 years
2 person x 2 popular 8 years
2 person x 2 popular or elite 4 years
x 2 = mens and womans
8 years refers to the definate time scale that the equipment, with out major changes, is used for.
4 years refers to the above and these 2 are disciplines that are rotated on a 4 yearly cycle. This gives the opportunity for womans match racing or foiling moths to be show cased with out the fear that they are stuck in place for ever as in Star. Perhaps one of these flexible disciplines can be chosen by the host nation as a way of show casing and spreading differnt sailing disciplines from around the world.
The Paralympic argument that they need facilitys for keel boats is fine and provided for by the same facilitys that any sailing event requires in terms of morrings for ribs, rescue boats, media boats, and race offical boats. Get the price of keel boats down by making them launch down slip ways.
The main problem with the IRC council is it is made up of the existing Olympic classes, who represent the best interests of their class ahead of the best interests of olympic sailing.
Therefore any change in the classes means one of them must go. Horsetrading is used to get a decision.
The makeup of the IRC Council must change to remove all vested interests. ie no representatives from the current Olympic classes.
Only then can rational decisions be made about the future of the Olympic classes.
The Olympic classes have to be good for TV as it’s the TV revenue that pays the bills.
The Olympics is the biggest showcase for sailing so the boats have to be spectacular as well to make non-sailors think I want to do that.
The Yngling and Star are a joke. Too slow and too expensive. The Star lacks offwind excitement in only having 2 sails.
The 470 and Finn too old.
Only the Laser / Laser Radial 49er and Windsurfers are fit for the purpose of Olympic Sailing.
The IRC needs to decide what 10 types of discipline are required for the Olympics. Then run trials for each discipline. Each selected class could have a life of 2 olympics after which there will be a new trial or change of discipline as needs dictate.
Sorry I can’t see how forcing boat to launch down a slipway gets the price down? I’m sure if I put my mind to it I could launch my XOD but should it be an olympic class, well apart from looking loads nicer than the Yngling, probably not.
Chances of putting getting a sensible answer out of the ISAF meeting slimmer than the trapeze wire on a 2 person skiff…There are too many agendas out there so the self interest will take over.
It does seam a shame, that sailing at the Olympics doesn’t really represent what happens in the real sailing world, unlike just about every other sport. There are loads of women sailing skiffs helming and crewing so why do they not get the chance to sail something fast?
no crane donut !
“Most people in the world walk. They do this in almost every country. Lets have more walking events. Oh wait, they don’t do it as a sport.”
Cecil, they DO have walking as a sport; in fact 60% of the Olympic road athletic events are walking events. Lots of sports have lots of slow Olympic events; there are more cross-country skiiing medals than downhill skiing medals, for example. Isn’t there a lesson there for sailing?
* Ummm, good post in many ways, but you moan at least as much as anyone else and insult other people a lot more. Pot, meet kettle.
* Women may sail skiff types in numbers in the UK but there are few skiff types outside of a small number of countries, and even in those countries more women (and men) CHOOSE to sail slower boats.
While there are claims that fast boats encourage people into sailing, there may not be much evidence. Arguably, they show sailing as too elitist, too expensive, and too difficult. The skiff clubs probably attract fewer kids and new sailors than the clubs that concentrate on slower craft. That’s not saying that the skiff types are not fantastic, but isn’t it an open question about whether they are the best face for hte sport?
Anyway, I’m outa here since it seems that the anonomous ones see any discussion or pointing out of inconvenient facts (apart from cheering their own discipline and abusing the others) is moaning. Those guys can stick with their “constructive” hobby of abusing the volunteers who run the sport, and the boats that most people actually choose to sail.
rory,
launching down a slipway gets the price down becuase it means that the venue does not require facilities to be built to lauch keelboats in another way, eg crane.
Chris 249,
I know they have walking as a sport.
I’m not sure, but I believe there are 3 racewalking events. The fact you have to use “road athletic events” to get a favourable statistic does not do you any credit.
More cross country skiing medals than downhill medals.
Cross country skiers are amazing! I don’t know if you have ever tried cross country skiing, but it is the hardest aerobic sport in the world. These guys/girls are top sportsmen. However sportsmen in both of these disciplines often medal in related sports, eg biathlon or slalom/SuperG etc
Sorry for moaning.
There are only skiff type boats IN a small number of countries. That is why few women outside these countries sail them. It takes a fleet to build a fleet.
Yes, more women sail non skiff type boats. But look at these women in terms of physique, age and attitude. Is a lady in her 40s, who has had 2 children and wants to race for fun at the weekends, likely to chose to sail a skiff or a Naional 12?
“There MAY not be much evidence,” MAY implies that there also MAY be lots of evidence, you dont know. You have your opinion, I have mine, both based on personal experience of bringing people into the sport.
In the Uk I’m not sure that we have skiff clubs and slower clubs in the same way as AUS. Possibly this allows progression throught
About the whole, women dont sail skiffs, has anyone actually thought why?
The reason is, there is nowhere to go at the moment, all of the girls who sail at an olympic level, have to sail olympic class boats, if not, there is just no future in it. and as there are less women sailing woldwide, there simply dont stretch as far, so they stick to current olympic classes.
If they were to add a womens skiff into the mix, then I am completely sure you would find that the popularity would take off, but for women in sailing, there has to be an end goal, such as the olympics, as unlike the guys, we cant seem to make the same big bucks in the other forms of sailing..
the boats sailors sail are decided quite solidly by the classes in the olympics, do you honestly think that anyone would sail a yingling if it wasnt olympic???
So give women a skiff.. and they will sail it.
–Sorry, got disconnected–
…the classes. I have found that a taster session with an early introduction to the trapeze can provide the impetus to decide to take up the sport seriously, the desire to keep going through the difficult bits.
On the subject of abusing those who run the sport I apologise if I have given that impression. I have been involved with the NGB, and a member of various committees, having personally been involved with the organisation of more than 12 national championships.
I don’t wish to abuse anyone’s boats, and again apologise.
Cecil, thank you for some of your points. We all get too irate on the net at times. I get too sensitive to people abusing the boats of others.
Re the evidence of fast boats; yes, we both have our opinion and neither of us know for sure. That’s the underlying point – given that none of us know for sure (although top guys at most of the world’s biggest dinghy builders have admitted that they were surprised by the comparative lack of interest in their production ’skiff types’ like Vectors, 600s and Buzzes) surely we should not be simply assuming that fast Olympic boats are better for marketing the sport.
Re women’s classes; gut feeling (and that’s all it is) is that there are more young women in medium-speed boats than in skiff types. Again, the issue is probably that there needs to be more research so that we can work out whether more women (and men) really do want to sail skiff types than dinghy types.
About credit; you said that “they don’t do walking as a sport”. You got no insults for getting something totally wrong to try to make your point….. why come up with yet another insult, simply because it’s been pointed out that you made an understandable factual error?
And this time, I really must bail out….
One of the arguements for the keelboats that gets ignored is that of somewhere for the great sailors to go as they get older. The olympics, judging by the spread of events is not just for the young, otherwise how would sports like shooting fit in to the fold and sailing alwyas has had two sides to it. The first is the athletic side and the second the mental side. Almost everybody will at some time in their sailing career been roundly ‘humped’ by some ‘old codger’, who despite not [apparently] hiking hard as the young fit things [like you],or pumping vigourously as the young fit things [like you], nevertheless somehow manages to out sail you every time. That, as we all learn, is experience and they are using their brain to sail faster, by sailing smarter. As the olyimpians get older, many do end up in the keelboat classes. and what is wrong with that?
Everybody, no matter what their background can relate to an event that features established figures with massive track records like Grael, Schidt, Cayard, Percy, Loof etc etc etc. Joe Punter may not recognise the names, but he can easily understand the pedigree. It is all very will to dismiss some of these guys as OAPs, but their cumulative experience makes the event work on many many levels.
Regarding choice of boat, I’ll declare the boats I own [Finn, Star, 59er, Feva, Laser, Opi], but I would say that the footage I enjoyed most from the last games was the 470s sailing in the big breeze. The most boring? 49er and Tornado. No bias there either as I learnt to sail in Tornados when I was a kid and have a 59er, but the 470s had the breeze and the HP boats did not during the Athens games. That makes a big big big big difference.
It is very easy to believe what a boat is like to sail on, is what it is like to watch from outside [percieved TV appeal], but the truth is allways different. The Star in a big breeze is the most scary boat on the planet to be onboard in many ways, but that is obvously not what it looks from outside. The big-T and 49er are scary fast to watch fly past you on the water, but on film? It’s hard to tell how fast they are against a featureless sea and they are all going the same speed so their is no contrast to inform you that that boat is ‘flying’ and that one is going slowly. You cannot hear the ‘whoosh’ or really see any indicators like spray like you can in real life. Skiffs are great fun and exilarating to be on board, but only our previous sailing expereince tells us they are fast. Next time you see some ’skiff’ blasting off a flat out reach and point it out excitedly to some uninterested bystander, carefully watch their reaction. 9 times out of 10 it will be a totally underwhelmed ‘Uh’ rather than the ‘wow’ many belive the boats deserve.
I reckon they should scrap them all….!! The future should be all kite surfing; foiling somethings; 3 sailed single handers…..Oh hang on a minute, I am dreaming.
Did have an idea about trying to get the RYA to organise a round Britain 2-hander during 2012. It would certainly last about the right length of time, and if you put gates off all the major cities (edinburgh/Liverpool etc) it would be a great way to showcase all of our country.
Probably never happen though….!!
Chas
Sorry the “no crane donut” doesn’t reduce the cost of the boats. It would cut out the cost for crane hire/purchase granted, but compared to the cost of owning and shipping two Ynglings/ Stars around this is nothing!
Compare the cost of running a laser radial/standard or even a 49er against the cost of running a keelboat campain its huge, although the Tornado was pretty expensive and just as dull to watch in no wind against the tide…
“Besides, if there are only a dozen teams from half a dozen countries who are of a decent standard, it makes a mockery of the Olympics. That is the reason the Tornado was dropped, it would be foolish to ignore this lesson.”
A very uneducated comment there from someone with very little multihull experience. Stick your head into the class before you pass BS like that.
o rory i was thinking that you would launch a yngling or a star down a slipway as these would be donated to maritime museums around the world that the paralympic boats would be slipway launchable given that they probably need to have keel’s
It seems to me that in the great blogosphere we can all have painless opinions as we don’t carry any burden for having to decide. As for what the proposals are telling us I’m not sure as I haven’t got time for some in depth analysis. I fear that there may be a lot of sailing nations outside of the big, rich ones thatmay like the status quo but I’m not sure how even they see half the classes as assisting in take up and development of the sport in their countries. The sailing nations with wealth seem on the whole to want something different to the status quo but can’t all agree on what.
As a user of the sporting structure lorded over by ISAF what I want above all else is to see evidence that the deciding body has given proper thought to the decisions needing making and can and does explain rationally so that all can understand. Given that not everyone can be satisfied a rational explanation is the minimum those being governed deserve.
What us users don’t want is evidence that the decisions taken weren’t properly discussed and taken hastily. eg. last November the discussions as they were, were held by the Equipment committee. Council had a quick meeting on the subject, ignored the discussions already held, decided without further discussion, voted without understanding what was happening and didn’t bother explaining.
If the council avoid such blatant compacency and tell us what their arguments were, how one ends up outweighing another and how the decision meets teh criteria they themselves set following IOC demands, then I might be unhappy but at least I’ll be able to accept the decisions.
I’m girl from a bit of a “skiffy” nation (australia), who sails lasers + match racing and has previously sailed yachts + 29er, so i know about a fair few of these disciplines. i have to say that tons more girls would sail something like a 29er if we could see a future in it. high-performance craft are quite hard to campaign; you have to train heaps, they’re expensive, have to find appropriate crew, etc. and what’s currently the highest goal you can attain? being world champ for one year. it’s really really hard yet no-one outside of sailing knows about you (and some sailors won’t even care).
On the other hand you have the classes i’m currently involved in, the laser radial and match racing; in the laser you get supported by your country, there’s a clear path to follow from youth to sailing the same boat in open and even Olympic events. in match racing you basically get a rich yacht club /+ rich sponsors to pay for you, you don’t have to drag a boat around/spend heaps on equipment or anything, just turn up in another country with your sailing skills and your rule book and race hard.
Ppl will say that boys race skiff/multihull/whatever classes at a high level, even semi-professionally, even though they’re not in the olympics, but i seriously think it’s easier for boys, in our society, to go “i’m going to be a professional athlete and do nothing but travel and do my sport for a few years”. it’s just not something girls are expected (allowed) to do, and it’s harder for girls to get sponsorship because sponsors assume less people watch the girls (probably true — but no-one watches sailing anyway) and also assume the girl’s scene is easier, so they are not “serious athletes” and do not “deserve” sponsorship. If on the other hand you can say “i’m an aspiring olympic athlete” that is recognised by society as a legitimate goal, even for girls.
the point is women face certain barriers to competing in high-performance classes — or certainly a lack of incentives to do so — and that having a high-performance boat suitable for girls (i.e. not too large! i personally think the radial demands too much in terms of weight) in the olympics would do much to encourage participation. after all we love to go fast as much as the boys do!
Why is this submission from The Executive Committe deemed “Urgent” and on the mid year agenda but the other 15 from MNAs on the same topic NOT “Urgent”?
Chris, you quoted me as saying “they don’t do walking as a sport”. This was incorrect.
I said, “Most people in the world walk. They do this in almost every country. Lets have more walking events. Oh wait, they don’t do it as a sport.”
“They” clearly refers to the people who walk. When the average person walks around, to the shops, to work, etc, are they doing this as a sport?
Clearly no.
I also say, “lets have more walking events.” Sure this implies that I am aware that these events already exist?
On the subject of fast boats; A news/documentary on the effect that the Olympics were having on the regions of Britain featured Weymouth and the Sailing.
The boat that made the biggest impression from the footage broadcast was the RS 600 FF. They had it sailing along, and also a wipeout.
Is this an Olympic class?
Is it a fast boat?
Did someone in television who doesn’t really know about sailing, but knows what looks good on screen, decide to broadcast it?
No, Yes, Maybe(Probably) are the answers.
Cecil, exactly who “they” were was not clear in that context. For example, much walking IS classified as a sport (ie check the US Sporting Goods Mfctrs surveys, UK and Australian sports participation surveys). Were ’sport walkers’ the “they” you meant? In context it was not clear.
Since both of us could be misread (as i believe you did when you said the same points I raised about the Finn applied to the Yngling) maybe it’s best not to level personal abuse on that count.
Re the 600FF broadcast – there is not necessarily a connection between what the media show to satisfy their aim (satisfying and increasing the target audience) and what will increase participation and interest in a sport (which is what we want). There is a lot of evidence to show that more publicity does not necessarily equal more popularity. The point has been brought up by Martin Hirons, who runs the biggest sports marketing/popularity surveys here, and by a Danish report to the IOC which I can no longer find. Even in the olympic coverage, the more spectacular disciplines arguably do not get more airtime (people running get more airtime than anything else; canoeing and rowing on flat water get more air than sailing despite sailing having Tornadoes, RSXs and 49ers).
Yes, the IOC wants more TV but the point is that we cannot also ignore the need to spread the sport wider (as the IOC also wants) and the evidence is that it’s best done with cheaper, slower boats – and in fact maybe keel yachts are more widespread (ie in my only yacht race for two years, we raced against a nice Farr 38 from Namibia). The spectacular whitewater canoe discipline is being dumped for not being widespread enough, despite getting more TV than a sailing class; why follow that lead?
The point is that again, this is not a simple argument and therefore those who see it as simplistic and abuse ISAF for not sharing their viewpoint (and I’m not saying you do) are way off beam. Like Bill, I mainly want to see that the decisions were taken after thorough consideration and research.
PS re “representing the largest part of our sport”. I never mentioned boats that don’t race; the reference was to racers and cruiser/racers like Ben 40.7s; the ones I raced on had ex AC and Olympic pros who were sailing them for money – they were certainly NOT cruising boats. Since 15,000 such boats (average 6+ crew each) pay annual PHRF rating fees in the US alone, it’s a huge part of the sport.
I think Cayard in Seahorse, and the ex Star and Soling guys I know, say that there’s a closer link between big boats and Stars than between big boats and other craft. That may be wrong, but certainly the converse is not proven is it?
Surely it helps to get the cats back in (which is something just about everyone wants) if we can point out just about every other major type of sailing craft has an Olympic spot?
” “Besides, if there are only a dozen teams from half a dozen countries who are of a decent standard, it makes a mockery of the Olympics. That is the reason the Tornado was dropped, it would be foolish to ignore this lesson.”
A very uneducated comment there from someone with very little multihull experience. Stick your head into the class before you pass BS like that.”
How do you know my multihull experience? For the record I grew up sailing cats from about the age of 8-18. I know gold and silver Tornado medallists, GBR Olympic reps and have many friends who sail them (almost all of whom are better sailors than me).
As I have posted on here several times, I am very much in favour of cats being included, but it seems obvious to me that the reason the Tornado was dropped was that it does not have sufficient take-up. If there were as many T’s as Lasers, 470s or 49ers it would not have been dropped. Okay, there may be more than a dozen good teams from half a dozen countries, but there aren’t enough to warrant a spot in the Olympics, in the view of the ISAF.
Thanks “Chew…” you state the obvious which has been ignored by the loud multihull crowd. The Tornado is a fantastic boat, but its draw is much smaller than the other classes, therefore it does not get the votes. Fairly straight forward decision making. So if we want a multihull in the olympics try to solve that equation. The 49er (and more so would the 29er) is just squeezing in if you look at accessibilty, popularity and performance.
Unfortunately for the Tornado crowd the laser wins by a mile in this category.
By the way the RSX is trying to price itself out which is a terrible shame.
And before the falming starts, the laser costs and standards aren’t so flash which is something ISAF needs to look at closer. But that unfortunately only re-inforces my argument that the Multihulls lobby should stop blaming others and look at what needs to be done with their own product. The laser with all its flaws is way more popular and perhaps the ISAF council members understands that?
Sure thing, lets have the Optimist in the games then as long as numbers are the only thing counting. Hi-hoo how I look forward to seeing some proper cruising yachts duking it out under PHRF. As long as you count just tornados, sure there are not that many. Count all racing multis and you get some numbers. Enough to qualify as a section of the sport and earn a spot at the games? For sure! Are numbers what the games are about? NO!
Getting more than a bit fed up with guys who keep harping “the Multihulls lobby should stop blaming others and look at what needs to be done with their own product”. If you feel OK with pissing others off, expect the same in return. I for sure dont get any fuzzy feelings when I see what kind of support the multihulls get when trying seriously to get back in.
So when you have a fantastic product that very few wants to buy, what do you do?
Change the product?
No, no the market does not know what is good for them. We are right, they are wrong. They will have to change. Maybe if we abuse them a bit more they will start to understand.
Great strategy, good luck!
What market are you talking about?
You still subscribe to the point of view that the “magical market” is the end all answer? Boy, you better check up on some fresher economical theory as the market theory have some serious flaws.
Dont think you should cry about abuse.
So Mr Henderson wants to ban “Air Rowing” but is apparently still has a love for watching the Windsurfing, the biggest air-rowing yawn sector of all, in no wind. How can that be right?
The whole thing does need a shake but the chances of that happening? The situation screams for team racing and shorter racing which the TV guys can understand better. Some of its been done already the 49er racing for example.
Also they need to look at boats which can be provided to the organising authority to provide a legacy and cut down on the arms race. Of course UK sailing has relatively good funding so as a country it’s probably in our interest to keep it as expensive as possible?
Prfhhh Gahhh – I did not see that comment coming I have to admit.
Are you prescribing to central planning and 5-year plans?
The theories of economics discussion we may have to leave to another time and place.
All I am trying to point out, which I thought that the multihull fans has ignored, or where they have a challenge to overcome is that the Tornado is perhaps the finest tuned piece of equipment in the small boat sailing world, built to the highest craftmanship by Marström and yet there is a dwindling uptake around the world, whereas the Laser Radial a much less down-market (sorry for using that word I hope it won’t get you started….) product with build quality at the other end of the spectrum is booming. There were 40 countries from every continent at the recent worlds in NZL after 3 years as an olympic class and the Tornado barely gets 20 after 30+ years.
In comparison the accessibility/cost/whatever of the Radial/Laser is much closer to where sailors and countries competing in this game wants to be.
That is why the Multihulls are voted out, no great conspiracy from the rest of the sailing world or the administrators the are blamed.
Magnus
By arguing over which monohull class should be dropped it clearly shows that the CATS must must must return to the Olympics.
Catamaran racing is the F1 of sailing and the high speed thrills and spills cannot be matched by monohulls.
It was a ludicrous decision to drop the Tornado class and that has been proven by popular opinion.
I don’t care which monohull class they drop so long as they accomodate one catamaran class.
Is that too much to ask given the plethora of monohulls at the games?
Magnus – the Tornado is an expensive boat to run I agree.
But there are several more affordable catamarans that could compete in an olympic class.
The Dart 18 (Rodeney Marsh/ Reg White design) is an excellent example.
Still very fast and very popular – regularily attracts over 100 entries at the worlds.
Plus the optimum weight combination is a male and a female so it has a broad appeal and would be the first class in the Olympics to have a mixed sex crew combo.
I am no sure if the OC has accepted larger /faster basket balls…. Parachutes for the 100m sprint.. spring loaded legs for the high jump..etc
If anyone hasnt noticed sailing is self consuming ….the more we develop the more we threaten the integrity of our sport. I have sailed A class ,mirror , couta , Finn,sailboard, and a farr 50
. Speed has nothing to do with any of it.. sailing is about feel and trying to justify that to the masses is pointless . If you want to go fast take a step and go waterskiing .. Sailing is not going to get you where you want to go. Every time a class is dropped from the olympics it is a step closer to our demise.. The classes sailed presently have history respect and style. The Finn in particular is very special.. 60 years an olympic class and now has acommodated a much larger spectrum of sailor weights.
I have started to sail the finn at 92 kgs 182cm an 38 yrs this boat is not an old banger that needs to be helped into retirement but a real sea boat that demands Fitness , disipline ,respect and seamenship..
Sail a finn sometime … you are sure to change your view .
Courtney